On Magazine Safeties
This comment just came in on an old post where no one would see it, but it raises a good point:
What’s the angst about a magazine safety? It can be a lifesaver in a gun snatch and if little ones end up getting hold of the gun. (Please don’t preach to me about training/safes/responsibility. I know ‘em all and have taken proper precautions with my 2-year old. Nevertheless, kids will be kids and the mag safety could prevent tragedy.)
John Farnham covered this topic perfectly in his Quips, and I hope he’ll forgive the lengthy quotation:
(6) Magazine Safety. Worse than merely useless, magazine safeties are death traps! Formidable liability negates any conjectured “safety” benefit of this device. The presumed advantage is that a grip safety sterilizes the pistol when the magazine is removed. However, often the magazine in a pistol that is being carried for defensive purposes is inadvertently unseated. Under these circumstances, the pistol will not fire and the owner doesn’t know it and won’t find out until the pistol is desperately needed to defend his life. In a worst case, the unseated magazine may, unnoticed, fall free from the pistol and thus not be immediately available for reseating. In addition, the pistol is unavoidably inoperable during much of the reloading process, and when magazines are damaged or unavailable, the pistol becomes completely useless. Worst of all, dependence on a magazine safety can be used to excuse sloppy and unsafe gun handling and storage. Storing an unsecured pistol with a round chambered is unsafe and improper, whether the pistol is equipped with a magazine safety or not.
And regarding the SR9’s magazine safety in particular:
It is the worst of the worst! With the magazine removed, the trigger functions normally, dropping the hammer, but the gun is prevented from firing. (…) It simply blocks the firing pin! Upon hearing a “click,” instead of a “bang,” the shooter knows little, because the pistol has told him little. Chamber might be empty. Might be a dud round. Magazine may be unlocked.
Throw in the fact that the gun can be damaged by dry-firing without a magazine in place and you have one really ill-designed “feature.”
I’d add that while the commenter is correct that a magazine safety “can be a lifesaver in a gun snatch,” that presumes that you’ve trained to dump the magazine in such a situation, AND that the magazine reliably drops free, AND that you have the presence of mind to actually hit the mag release while engaging in a physical struggle… Oh, and if you win the struggle, congratulations, you’ve just won a gun you can’t shoot.
[...] The Unforgiving Minute has a post on the dangers of magazine safeties. [...]
Pingback by Magazine Safeties | The Firearm Blog — January 5, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
“I’d add that while the commenter is correct that a magazine safety “can be a lifesaver in a gun snatch,” that presumes that you’ve trained to dump the magazine in such a situation, AND that the magazine reliably drops free, AND that you have the presence of mind to actually hit the mag release while engaging in a physical struggle… Oh, and if you win the struggle, congratulations, you’ve just won a gun you can’t shoot.”
Let me address each of these points in turn…
1. Yes, I have and do practice dumping the magazine in awkward positions. Not that I believe it’s necessary.
2. I wouldn’t use a pistol that doesn’t reliably drop a magazine. In point of fact, can you report on a currently manufactured pistol that wouldn’t drop a loaded magazine? Empty perhaps but not loaded.
3. I can’t see how one would forget the location of the mag release button if they decided the struggle wasn’t going well. IMO the anti-snatch capability of a pistol with mag safety is one of the few real world advantages of the autoloader over the revolver. I sincerely doubt I would suddenly forget one of the main reasons why I was packing an SR9.
4. “Oh, and if you win the struggle, congratulations, you’ve just won a gun you can’t shoot.”
I’m sorry but this is almost laughably myopic. If an assailant went for my gun in the first place I believe it’s safe to assume he doesn’t have his own weapon of significance. If he did, he’d use it. So by disabling my own weapon with a magazine drop we’re back on parity. Unfortunately for my attacker, if I’m of the mindset to carry a full-size 9mm I’d probably also have a backup gun.* I also habitually carry a Spyderco Endura, a not insignificant deterrent to further agression. There are other possibilities as well, not the least of which is to gain enough distance from the attacker to insert a second magazine. I’m sure the reader of this gets the idea.
With regards to Farnham’s comments, everyone has their own opinion. But everything he said in the above quoted paragraph is largely speculative. I carried a number of pistols for years on a daily basis. I NEVER had a magazine “inadvertently unseated.” The whole disabled-during-reloading is a red herring argument largely based on IPSC games. In the real world people shoot guns dry when things get really serious. A mag safety detracts nothing from this. Damaged magazines? Mr. Farnham, please explain how one works in a weapon not equipped with a mag safety but wouldn’t in one so designed? Missing magazines? If I don’t have a mag what are the chances I have loose ammo laying around to drop singly into the chamber? Finally, I’m a gun handling Nazi. I threw people off the range several times when I ran the gun club during my college days. I’ve left ranges I don’t control when others have displayed unsafe gun handling. In short, I’m not a chucklehead with a CCW permit. But I firmly believe a magazine safety can avert potential tragedy under certain circumstances.
*For me largish autoloaders would only be carried when in a fairly high crime area. Thankfully I don’t frequent such places. I’m perfectly happy and feel sufficiently well-armed with a snubbie most of the time. In a nasty neighborhood that snubbie becomes a backup.
Comment by Bill Lester — January 6, 2008 @ 11:15 am
“In point of fact, can you report on a currently manufactured pistol that wouldn’t drop a loaded magazine? Empty perhaps but not loaded. ”
Sig P230/232
CZ75B and variants with the “mag brake” design feature
Some 1911s
A few others I handle daily…
Comment by drstrangegun — January 6, 2008 @ 11:58 pm
Ayoob used to think mag safeties were a bad idea, but an article by him says that statistically more police have been saved by mag safeties than harmed. I don’t want one on my civilian CCW gun, but I can see the point on a duty gun.
I see two outcomes in a struggle over a gun–
I win. In that case I probably don’t need a working gun anyhow.
I lose. In that case, I really don’t want a working gun as the prize.
Comment by Sevesteen — January 7, 2008 @ 10:30 am
I don’t know of any handguns that will eject a fully loaded magazine while in the holster on the hip. I’m interested to learn of a handgun(s) that will kick out loaded mags while the mag well is either horizontal or pointing slightly upwards.
So if you lack the situational awareness to stop the gun grab, but have enough awareness to drop your mag, you might have saved the day. That’s not much or a reason to carry something that disables your handgun.
Why not just carry the gun chambered with an empty mag well?
Comment by Roughedge — January 7, 2008 @ 9:59 pm